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80 HP 912UL will not start

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3 years 2 months ago #8901 by Hans Ryrstedt
Hans Ryrstedt replied the topic: 80 HP 912UL will not start

Daniel Leach wrote: , we have pulled a few apart and a friend has drawn up the full circuit with all component values .

Hi I am planning to take one apart, maybe you can post the circuit diagram instead?

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3 years 2 months ago #8995 by David Wallis
David Wallis replied the topic: 80 HP 912UL will not start
A interesting development has occurred. I live in Northern Illinois and the temperatures have dropped quite sharply after labor day. I was having to use a chem. ice pack to cool the module to get the engine started, previously.

Now with the cooper hanger temperatures my engine is starting with no effort on my part, cooling or heating the modules. This would mask a defective module for quite a long time in some parts of the world. www.rotax-owner.com/media/kunena/emoticons/pinch.png

Also a aircraft with a 80 hp Rotax in the next hanger just came down with the same module problem. The module was made in 07 naturally.

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3 years 2 months ago #8996 by Daniel Leach
Daniel Leach replied the topic: 80 HP 912UL will not start
It,s seems to be between 2004 to 2008 are stuffing up all over the place most with same hard the start problems . I haven,t heard of one soft start failing but some one has one out there we are chasing a dead unit to make a test jig .

Cheers dan

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3 years 2 months ago #8997 by Roger Lee
Roger Lee replied the topic: 80 HP 912UL will not start
I hope everyone is filling out CSIR forms and telling anyone with a module problem to fill out the form is the only way to let Rotax know what is going on in the field. This module failure is getting to be a little bigger issue than most thought. I'm starting to get regular calls about failures and it seems all the distributors in the US are out of modules and it may be weeks before they get more.

Roger Lee
LSRM-A & Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Tucson, AZ Ryan Airfield (KRYN)
520-574-1080 Home (TRY HOME FIRST)
520-349-7056 Cell

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3 years 2 months ago #8998 by Daniel Leach
Daniel Leach replied the topic: 80 HP 912UL will not start
Well I think it would be a little obvious by now to rotax that a lot of there dealers are out of stock of them and can,t keep up to stock . I have just had a pair fail on me so yes there no discount exchange program in place so people change out if in doubt on them . A lot of people are taking the risk using the heat gun to start plane because modules are to dear to replace .

Cheers Daniel

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3 years 2 months ago #9002 by David Wallis
David Wallis replied the topic: 80 HP 912UL will not start
I'd be thrilled to make out a report to Rotax. Where do I get the form at?

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3 years 2 months ago #9003 by Rob Seaton
Rob Seaton replied the topic: 80 HP 912UL will not start
You can get a form from several sources:
From the Rotax website: www.flyrotax.com/portaldata/5/dokus/d04153.pdf
Also in your Owners manual (near the back page)
Rotax-Owner www.rotax-owner.com/support-topmenu/csir...e-information-report
You local service center or distributor.

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3 years 2 months ago #9004 by Rob Seaton
Rob Seaton replied the topic: 80 HP 912UL will not start
Daniel,
Please do not assume it is obvious to Rotax because of increased sales: don't forget they introduced the ASM soft-start module and have the 2-for-1 kit (part number 881280) so many have been sold recently just to get the easy start feature.
The Aviation industry needs problems to be documented and reported, that is one important way we can learn improve.
Rob

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3 years 2 months ago - 3 years 2 months ago #9011 by Daniel Leach
Daniel Leach replied the topic: 80 HP 912UL will not start
Hi Rob I know where you are coming from but the average customer just looks at his own problem in hand . If it doesn,t start they ask around to find out the cause or contact there local deler . Then at the end of the day they find out they have no choice to buy new ones and feel there fighting a lost cause . Then the customer gets his new items when they have stock and really doen,t feel the point in putting in a report because they aren,t getting any thing for the time for paper work . That is just human nature to look after number one first the only true real way is to offer a small percent discount with trading parts that Didn,t make there design TBO . To be honest they need parts back to see what goes wrong with parts out in service no report form is going to tell them which chip went on the circuit board unless there a hitic customer . I think people would fill out a form for a little discount and hand old parts in(so gets them out of secondhand market) fill form out with hours and engine number and they then would get a true failure rate on items . All lot of the outboard companys in Australia have a country wide history of hours and service and owners names of engines . I would have thought would all the paper work around aircraft one would hope rotax would have bought in a system like that . Far as the new soft start modules good so far haveen,t seen a dead one but still heard,of starter sprag clutches giving up around 1400 hours make so that is still a problem not getting to TBO of 2000 on let engines .



Cheers dan
Last Edit: 3 years 2 months ago by Daniel Leach.

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3 years 2 months ago #9024 by Rob Seaton
Rob Seaton replied the topic: 80 HP 912UL will not start
Good points Dan.
Rob

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2 years 9 months ago #9857 by Reilly Keen
Reilly Keen replied the topic: 80 HP 912UL will not start
Hi Guys

I have a 2007 912s with the same problems. Not firing. 710 hours.

I am told by our local Rotax agent here that Rotax are no longer subsidising the ASSM kit.
Also tried to order one from lockwood and they are out of stock.

Anyone know if the kits are still being discounted?

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2 years 9 months ago - 2 years 9 months ago #9858 by Daniel Leach
Daniel Leach replied the topic: 80 HP 912UL will not start
sorry reily

i,m not sure of any cheap ones around the place lockwood was the only hope . Funny lock wood can,t keep them on the self for long . I think one day there will be after market ones if the price goes up .there guys over here in oz that have drawn the circuit just slack at getting them made . they are a item that tents to play up cold when starting so rotax don,t seem to deem as a safty problem how ever i have heard of a tecman landing in a padock both failed when hot . Then they still worked when they cooled down then put on a test rig and failed again after a few hours . Because they are so pricey people don,t throw away if in doubt. as the saying goes if in doubt throw a way .

cheers dan
Last Edit: 2 years 9 months ago by Daniel Leach. Reason: spelling

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2 years 9 months ago #9861 by Reilly Keen
Reilly Keen replied the topic: 80 HP 912UL will not start
Thanks Dan but that's not good news. I understood that there was no chance of an inflight failure!!

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2 years 9 months ago #9862 by Przemysław Wiśniewski
Przemysław Wiśniewski replied the topic: 80 HP 912UL will not start
My friend had the same problem with 582 DCDI modules. Under 3*C was no ignition.
Probably capacitors inside are dead due to poor quality of component or overheat.

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2 years 9 months ago #9863 by David Wallis
David Wallis replied the topic: 80 HP 912UL will not start
I did recently receive two new modules under the special pricing program, from LEAF.

I believe the person I talked to said the shipment they received was going to be the last one and that there was supposedly a rumor that some sort of new replacement start system was going to replace the current setup. Their shipment was for around 50 modules I recall. I was on a waiting list so I was a lucky one.

My old modules will start if the ambient temperatures are under 68ºF however I have no idea how long that will last.

I checked with Lockwood when I was in Sebring for the Light Sport Expo and the sweet young lady there said they did not have any modules in stock.

Personally, I think this whole episode is a great big fat black eye for Rotax & Ducatti :angry:

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2 years 9 months ago #9865 by Daniel Leach
Daniel Leach replied the topic: 80 HP 912UL will not start
Just as a side issue. the guys over here start here 100 hp 912 fitted with no soft start modules or special fly wheel start by cranking motor then when starter motor up to speed a sec or two then switch ignition on while engine is still cranking . This seems to save the slipper and dog clutches in gear box .This acts like a two speed starter system so prop doesn,t have to try to get from 0 to 2000 rpm in three turns .A friend has been doing this for a 1000 hours now and got his gearbox stripper and checked its perfect inside . Also just is important to pull throttle right back hard before shutting engine down this all so you get low as possable rpm before shut down so prop doesn,t drive the motor this relieves stress to gear box clutches .

Cheers Daniel

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2 years 9 months ago - 2 years 9 months ago #9866 by Kevin Stewart
Kevin Stewart replied the topic: 80 HP 912UL will not start
I have a circuit diagram for the ignition modules but I don't know that it will do you much good. Accessing the circuit board is a fairly destructive process unless you know what you are doing.

The following company has some experience in repairing ignition modules for about 160GBP. Perhaps they would do a discount for a large batch?

Carmo Electronics

I do not know the liability issues of having an ignition repaired in this manner. By all accounts they cut into the case in the appropriate place, remove the potting, change the faulty components and re-pot the circuit in that area.

If you have both ignition modules repaired at the same time then you potentially have a common-mode point of weakness that may result in a failure if something goes wrong with both at the same time.

It would be much better if Rotax offered exchange units for a sensible price. That would avoid all of these issues and help protect the brand reputation. Let's be honest, no one wants the reputation that Jabiru currently has :(

Kevin
Last Edit: 2 years 9 months ago by Kevin Stewart.

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2 years 9 months ago #9867 by Daniel Leach
Daniel Leach replied the topic: 80 HP 912UL will not start
Hi Kevin

How did you come up with the circuit diagram a few friends have soaked in acetone and got a few a part a worked out the the circuit have found a few design fault sthe other has the contacts to get boards made as his job to draw board design .

Cheers dan

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2 years 9 months ago #9869 by Daniel Leach
Daniel Leach replied the topic: 80 HP 912UL will not start
It would be much better if Rotax offered exchange units for a sensible price. That would avoid all of these issues and help protect the brand reputation. Let's be honest, no one wants the reputation that Jabiru currently has :(

Kevin[/quote]

Yes rotax needs opposition on some parts to force prices down just like anything else in life or they get greedy

Funny jab use Honda mower coils and some older Honda civic distributor parst not the best idea . Jab power aircraft in Australia are in the process for having big flying restrictions put in place , like nor be able to carry two people or fly over houses etc . The civil aviation authorities over here have decide about time they fixed there motors or don,t fly them .

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2 years 9 months ago #9871 by Mark Kyle
Mark Kyle replied the topic: 80 HP 912UL will not start
Hi Kevin

Would it be possible for you to email me a copy of your circuit to compare with the one we have done here before I start the pcb layout

Mark

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