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water inlet tube angle

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5 months 3 weeks ago #16187 by jay white
jay white created the topic: water inlet tube angle
The water inlet tube angle on the cylinder head is the wrong angle for my application. I am moving the coolant reservoir to accommodate the oil reservoir on a Kitfox model IV. hence the need to change the tube angle. looks like its threaded and loctite as well. Cant find the reference in the heavy manual. Any ideas?

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5 months 3 weeks ago #16189 by Roger Lee
Roger Lee replied the topic: water inlet tube angle
HI Jay,
It is threaded. Heat it with a heat gun or butane torch to release the Loctite. Then screw it back together and put it on the plane. Use a Magic marker to mark the flange and tube for your correct position. Then take it back apart, clean the threads. I prefer Loctite 648 here, but some use 243. Coat the threads all the way around to get a good seal after it sets. Let it cure well before adding any coolant.

Roger Lee
LSRM-A & Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Tucson, AZ Ryan Airfield (KRYN)
520-574-1080 Home (TRY HOME FIRST)
520-349-7056 Cell

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5 months 3 weeks ago #16191 by jay white
jay white replied the topic: water inlet tube angle
Thanks Roger,
I"m ordering the 648, It varies in price from hundreds of dollars to 40 dollars. I need to do four tubes, so I'll buy the 40 dollar one :)

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  • Bill Hertzel
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5 months 3 weeks ago #16194 by Bill Hertzel
Bill Hertzel replied the topic: water inlet tube angle
Keep in mind that the tubes are available in both 45° and 80° versions if you need a different angle.
When removing them, it is easier to grab the tube firmly in a vice and while heating, turn the flange with a large wrench.
These are aluminum parts and will need more heat and force that you might anticipate.

Locktite 648 is intended for press-fit parts. These are threaded parts. I suspect that the wicking properties are the determining factor.
If you are buying a $40, 50ml bottle you will have enough for a couple of hundred fittings.
The $5, 0.5ml tube is all you will need. Locktite has a shelf life of two years.

The 290 Green, Wicking Loctite, is available at most auto parts stores.
You can assemble the tubes dry and get the positions correct before applying a couple of drops to the threads.
It will wick into the threads and seal them up.
You are not concerned with these parts coming loose.
You are just filling the threads to prevent leaks.

Be extremely careful when reassembling them.
The tubes are soft aluminum and will gall and bind in the flange with the slightest excuse.
A few drops of lacquer thinner on the threads helps to act as a temporary lubricant that will evaporate and be gone in a few minutes.
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5 months 3 weeks ago - 5 months 3 weeks ago #16200 by Roger Lee
Roger Lee replied the topic: water inlet tube angle
Hi Bill,

Loctite 648 green a sleeve retainer compound is an acceptable Loctite for the tubes. It's either in the manual or an SB I can't remember right now. It does need heat again to remove, but it never leaks again or comes lose.

p.s.
Jay,
It does come in small tubes.

Roger Lee
LSRM-A & Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Tucson, AZ Ryan Airfield (KRYN)
520-574-1080 Home (TRY HOME FIRST)
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Last Edit: 5 months 3 weeks ago by Roger Lee.
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5 months 3 weeks ago #16209 by Bill Hertzel
Bill Hertzel replied the topic: water inlet tube angle
Hi Roger,

I didn't mean to imply that 648 would not work, just that 290 works as well and may be easier to find in the small sizes.
I had to take a full water system apart and found that the factory Loctite appeared to be mostly on the outer threads and not fully soaked into the inner ones.
This indicated to me that the factory may assemble the hoses first and apply the 648 as a wicking sealant once everything was in their final positions.
Having to get everything in place and marked and then disassemble it all to apply the thread sealant and then hope it all goes back into place correctly is asking for too much.

None of the plumbing job was much fun and not something I wanted to do twice.;)

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5 months 3 weeks ago #16219 by Roger Lee
Roger Lee replied the topic: water inlet tube angle
Hi Bill,
Sorry, I misunderstood.

Roger Lee
LSRM-A & Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Tucson, AZ Ryan Airfield (KRYN)
520-574-1080 Home (TRY HOME FIRST)
520-349-7056 Cell

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5 months 2 weeks ago #16229 by Kevin Machniak
Kevin Machniak replied the topic: water inlet tube angle
Loctite 648 is what the manual calls for .

I was told or read that it is the retaining compound not the threads that holds the tube in as well as seals them.

The threads are very fine and if removing, cleaning and reusing a tube , there is a fair amount of play. That 648 makes up for that and it sure holds and seals well .
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5 months 2 weeks ago #16236 by jay white
jay white replied the topic: water inlet tube angle
The tube came apart easily using a digital heat gun at 600 degrees for about 4 minutes. It cooled quickly so I had to reapply heat. I am now trying to pre fit the hoses and the spider which when moved doesn't lend itself to straight run hose installation. "conti"hose is stiff and 17mm is non existent in the U.S. Thanks for the info on the locktite. Progress is slow but it is progress.

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5 months 2 weeks ago #16237 by Bill Hertzel
Bill Hertzel replied the topic: water inlet tube angle
As it appears, most of your sealant was on the outer threads. Wicked In.
Clean them up well or they will not go back together.
You can get the remainder off with a wire brush.

Be careful when reassembling, They cross-thread and bind up for any excuse.
Lacquer thinner or similar helps to act as a temporary evaporating lubricant.

5/8" hose will fit tightly. Once it is in place the only way to remove it is to cut it off.
Be sure the hose clamps are on the hose beforehand.
Once they are installed more than 3-5 minutes, they are permanent.
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5 months 2 weeks ago #16238 by Roger Lee
Roger Lee replied the topic: water inlet tube angle
Hi Jay,
If you need to make a bend and the 17mm hose gets a flat spot you can use a spring on the inside to keep the diameter round and full flow. This is done with several aircraft MFGs with the 17mm coolant hose. I also see springs in oil hose to keep them open where they bend. Seems to work very well.

Roger Lee
LSRM-A & Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Tucson, AZ Ryan Airfield (KRYN)
520-574-1080 Home (TRY HOME FIRST)
520-349-7056 Cell
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5 months 2 weeks ago #16242 by jay white
jay white replied the topic: water inlet tube angle
I did find some good 5/8 hose with bends and angle that may actually work! While i'm fitting the hoses to the elbows I would like to be able to manipulate them a little on the metal. Can I or should I use any type of lubricant i.e. silicone grease, to ease that process or does that lend itself to slippage later?

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5 months 2 weeks ago - 5 months 2 weeks ago #16243 by Kevin Machniak
Kevin Machniak replied the topic: water inlet tube angle
Hi,
From your pictures it appears like you are doing the switches on the bench without it installed on the motor mount.

I personally would have the engine on its engine mount before I would relocate hoses, expansion tank, etc....

I ended up putting my new 912 uls on the engine mount to overcome some conflicts after trying without the mount.

I was swapping a new identical engine from the old one.
Last Edit: 5 months 2 weeks ago by Kevin Machniak.
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5 months 2 weeks ago - 5 months 2 weeks ago #16244 by Roger Lee
Roger Lee replied the topic: water inlet tube angle
Hi Jay,
Use the 17mm. 5/8" is too small and where it gets stretched over the metal tube it can stretch past its design limit and cause the inner thread wrap to break and the over stretched area can easily crack and break earlier than it should. You would also need to change the spring clamps. Remember there is expansion and shrinking going on during cold and hot cycles. This can cause more stress and leaks.
11/16" is just too big and usually leaks.

Think of it this way. You may save $75 trying to use 5/8". While flying one day you have a coolant failure either over hostile terrain and or no place to really land. Maybe you do set it down a long way from home. Right at that moment would you give $75 to not have to be going through all that grief, work and most likely a huge expense over that original $75?

Personally I would give up a lot more than $75 so why not just do it right up front? We are way up off the ground while flying with lots of time and money invested. I see no good reason to chip away at keeping good odds in my favor.

Been there, done that when I was young. I got older and a tad wiser.

p.s.
Don't FORCE me to come to Idaho to work. I'm supposed to come up on vacation and relax. :lol:

Roger Lee
LSRM-A & Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Tucson, AZ Ryan Airfield (KRYN)
520-574-1080 Home (TRY HOME FIRST)
520-349-7056 Cell
Last Edit: 5 months 2 weeks ago by Roger Lee.
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5 months 2 weeks ago #16250 by jay white
jay white replied the topic: water inlet tube angle
Yes, the engine in on the bench. I called CPS, Rotech etc, and there are not any 17MM hoses with 90 degree bends in them. The small amount that the 5/8 stretches to go over the nipple does not appear to be excessive but your right, heat and cooling are from 0 degrees to 180+. Definitely a lot of range for an ill fitted hose.
The coolant tank IS moving. No choice. The oil tank is NOT moving. no choice. I will pull the old coolant reservoir off my old engine. (they are different.) on the new one and see if the straight run hoses will work with that. I hope so, but too bad I have to use 20 year old parts on this pretty little (and expensive) motor. I"ll send some pix.

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5 months 2 weeks ago #16251 by Roger Lee
Roger Lee replied the topic: water inlet tube angle
Hi Jay,
Yes there is a 90 degree 17mm hose. I order it all the time and Rotax uses it on the top #3 cylinder. It should have come on your engine. You can us a straight 17mm and put an 11/16" spring in it. Then it could be bent to 180 if need be. Stay away from the 5/8".

Look in the parts manual for the 90 degree part number on the top #3 cylinder.

p.s.
Flight Design aircraft move the coolant expansion tank in front of the carb balance tube, rotate it and put the 90 degree on the #2 cylinder.

Roger Lee
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Tucson, AZ Ryan Airfield (KRYN)
520-574-1080 Home (TRY HOME FIRST)
520-349-7056 Cell

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5 months 2 weeks ago - 5 months 2 weeks ago #16255 by jay white
jay white replied the topic: water inlet tube angle
Ok, I"ll reseach the part numbers etc. Attached is a pick from the top of the orientation of the old water reservoir. The new res is a different design with different angles (none of which are helping) I went to flight design website search and saw the spring video. Thanks. It may be exactly what I need. Yes the engine did come with one 90 degree but it doesn't fit all the applications I will need. If I can bend it without a collapse and keep stress off the part, I"ll do it. I"ll keep you posted on progress, Also, I will hang the motor and do the plumbing with the install as near real life as possible. that is a good call too. Thanks guys.

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5 months 2 weeks ago #16258 by Roger Lee
Roger Lee replied the topic: water inlet tube angle
It looks pretty close to the same if you clocked the yellow end to 10 o'clock instead of 11. You can use any straight 17mm with a spring and it will work just fine.

Roger Lee
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Tucson, AZ Ryan Airfield (KRYN)
520-574-1080 Home (TRY HOME FIRST)
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5 months 2 weeks ago #16259 by jay white
jay white replied the topic: water inlet tube angle
I"ll change the clock position. Funny, Kmach suggested hanging the engine so I started to do that, it was a great idea. But as you can see, the old engine, does not match the new engine dimensions, this just keeps getting more fun.

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3 months 2 weeks ago #16708 by Norman Warthmann
Norman Warthmann replied the topic: water inlet tube angle
hello,
I also needed to remove and refit the coolant elbows in the flanges; the ones on the cylinder heads. The Rotax Manual says to use "Loctite 243" for fitting them. Given the large amount of play and the fact that 243 is a thread "lock" rather than thread "seal", I started some research and found that the rotax-owner video calls for "Loctite 648", which is pretty expensive and not rated as a thread seal either, plus, the data sheet indicates that 648 looses strength over time in Glycol. So I contacted Loctite customer service and they were adamant in recommending "Loctite 577" for this application. I have now done 2 of the elbows with "648" and will do the last one with "577". Curious to know what other people's experiences are. I can already tell you that excessive and hardened 648 is very difficult to remove from the aluminium flange sealing surface.

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