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80 HP 912UL will not start

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2 years 4 months ago #11119 by Kevin Stewart
Kevin Stewart replied the topic: 80 HP 912UL will not start
From what I have heard most of the failures are not the early units with the 4 pin plug and the bullet connectors but the later ones with the two 6 pin plugs. I don't know anything about the very latest units.

I have only ever looked inside the one unit so I can't comment on the others.

Kevin

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2 years 4 months ago - 2 years 4 months ago #11120 by Andy Fell
Andy Fell replied the topic: 80 HP 912UL will not start
Ok that concurs with what I've found. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that the new ones have been improved. I wouldn't mind paying it so much if they'd sorted it out.

The solution doesn't seem too obvious, since you've confirmed no measured issue with the capacitors. Maybe ~300GBP repair cost isn't such bad value after all - could waste a hell of a lot of time on this and my aircraft is currently grounded :-(

I do have at least one dead unit donated to me for research purposes.... So I may continue with that one.
Last Edit: 2 years 4 months ago by Andy Fell.

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2 years 4 months ago #11121 by Mark Kyle
Mark Kyle replied the topic: 80 HP 912UL will not start
Here in Oz we have much higher temperatures of course so we may see more failures than in Europe per aircraft. I have had one unit that had a shorted smd transistor but the rest were all the main charge capacitors had dramatically lost their capacitance. Kevin is correct the older 4 wire units were very good it has been the 6 wire Ducatie units that have been failing and as I said the new 6wire Motorini units seem to be bulletproof


Mark

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2 years 4 months ago #11126 by Andy Fell
Andy Fell replied the topic: 80 HP 912UL will not start
Ok thanks Mark,

The new ones available here in the UK still appear to be Ducati (if anyone has any stock that is). Don't know anything about a Motorini unit?

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2 years 4 months ago #11127 by Mark Kyle
Mark Kyle replied the topic: 80 HP 912UL will not start
I got my engine in 2012. It has the softstart option you can either enable or not enable. The modules have Motorini actually written on them. I was told some time ago that this was the case it was only recently I actually looked at them.

This is why I am chasing one of the newer ones. You can only use the softstart option on the later motors as they have a different timing than the older engines to allow this. But the new modules can be used on the older engines without the timing so long as you dont enable the softstart option. This way the one module can do all engines

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2 years 4 months ago - 2 years 4 months ago #11128 by Andy Fell
Andy Fell replied the topic: 80 HP 912UL will not start
These ones in the UK appear to have Ducati written on the top (link below). Although there is an extra white plug, looking at the picture - is this soft start related? My current (dead) ones (~2006), don't have soft start - since I'm on 80hp version (without a slipper clutch) and not the 100hp I've never worried too much about soft start - the 80hp is much less aggressive.

www.ekmpowershop2.com/ekmps/shops/conair...as-966727-3261-p.asp
Last Edit: 2 years 4 months ago by Andy Fell.

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2 years 4 months ago #11129 by MARK JACKSON
MARK JACKSON replied the topic: 80 HP 912UL will not start
Hi Mark

You can use the soft start option of the modules on older engines without the flywheel mod.

They can be used on any 6- pin ignition engine with or without the soft start activated.

If you don't have a slipper clutch fitted, you would be better without the soft start working.

Cheers Mark

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2 years 4 months ago #11130 by Mark Kyle
Mark Kyle replied the topic: 80 HP 912UL will not start
The first softstart that came out was a aftermarket unit and it was designed for the older pre 2011/12 engines then Rotax decided to incorporate it into the new engines like I have and made some timing pickup change to allow the softstart to work well on the later engines. I was told that you couldnt use the softstart in the new rotax modules on the older engines at all because of this timing pickup change. But if you can that would be a bonus of course.

Mark

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2 years 4 months ago - 2 years 4 months ago #11131 by Daniel Leach
Daniel Leach replied the topic: 80 HP 912UL will not start
OHi mark

I have seen new soft start modules used on older 6 pin engines but they have not used the soft start . I could be wrong but the fly wheels is important at cranking speed and the modules soft start takes over at idle etc . To be honest I have spoken to a long time rotax service man about this . He still has had to replace starter one way Clutch in the engine fitted with soft start modules working . So at the end of the day the best way we have found is to start cranking engine and then turn on mag switches . This will reduce load on starter parts and prevent knick back but there other rules to follow . Best to have least a 300 cca battery and big battery leads and make short as to prevent loss . Aircraft that have battery mounted in tail area you will be up for problems from 700 hors plus most Lilkely .Now engine shut down is important as well best to pull throttle back then some more then shut one mag of then the other this will reduce rpm to slow as possable to prevent knick back on starter clutches and gear box slipper clutch . It comes down to prop and gear box is connected to engine at all times where cars bikes and trucks you only start the engine by it self .

Hope that helps soft start modules arm,t the golden fix just long as they work and stay working when flying .

Cheers dan

Cheers dan
Last Edit: 2 years 4 months ago by Daniel Leach.

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2 years 4 months ago #11132 by Roger Lee
Roger Lee replied the topic: 80 HP 912UL will not start
First you may be surprised that just because it says Ducati the guts may not be. :ohmy:

I would love to see pictures of anyone who has successfully opened an ignition module up and repaired it without destroying it and still have it in a functional state and operationally safe.

If you have a picture of one that has been altered on a working engine please post a picture.

You can use the new soft start ignition modules on any of the 6 pin series. The soft start takes the older firing of 4 degrees BTDC to 3 degrees ATDC then after 5-6 seconds it advances to the 26 degrees BTDC. If you don't hook up the two wires to the starter solenoid then it is like a normal start. This seems kind of like a waste. You can use the soft start modules without the new flywheel, but will not get the full advantage of the soft start feature. The new flywheel is a little different than the old one with its timing marks.

I haven't heard of any of the new soft start modules failing.
Rob have you heard of any failing.

Roger Lee
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Tucson, AZ Ryan Airfield (KRYN)
520-574-1080 Home (TRY HOME FIRST)
520-349-7056 Cell

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2 years 4 months ago - 2 years 4 months ago #11133 by Roger Lee
Roger Lee replied the topic: 80 HP 912UL will not start
Hi Dan,

If you have engine kickback you have an electrical issue like a low battery, too small a wire gage setup for the starting system, weak starter and or sprag issues or poor carb setup and or poor starting technique. A loosely shimmed gearbox can add to the problem.
If you have kickback it isn't the new soft start modules and any kickback issue should be corrected immediately so you don't trash a hard to replace starter sprag. I recommend to most if you have the older black starter to switch to the gold colored higher torque starter. This can really help.

Roger Lee
LSRM-A & Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Tucson, AZ Ryan Airfield (KRYN)
520-574-1080 Home (TRY HOME FIRST)
520-349-7056 Cell
Last Edit: 2 years 4 months ago by Roger Lee.

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2 years 3 months ago - 2 years 3 months ago #11206 by Andy Fell
Andy Fell replied the topic: 80 HP 912UL will not start
I sent my ignition modules to Carmo in the Netherlands.

It took about a week to get them back (to the UK). Plugged them in and the 912 fires up perfectly. In fact, it seems to fire up better than it has done for a long time (never realised the start-up spark had got so weak). They cut out the back, repair 'something' and then pot the module from the back, thus making it completely sealed now.

I have been working with another guy in the UK here to try to figure this out (along with Kevin's very useful information). There is a heat dependency and clearly some component is 'on the edge' of its design margin (which is temporarily repaired by application of heat) - we have speculated it could be NPN hfe sensitivity or one of the SCRs having a weak gate threshold (but other evidence contradicts this at times).

We got to the point where it needs quite a lot of effort to really get to the bottom of (certainly doesn't seem simple on the face of it), in which case spare time return on investment is low! Keeping our noses to the ground if any more gem information arrives.
Last Edit: 2 years 3 months ago by Andy Fell.

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2 years 3 months ago #11207 by Kevin Stewart
Kevin Stewart replied the topic: 80 HP 912UL will not start
Andy,

Glad to hear that you have had yours fixed. Which area on the back of the module did they cut open?

If it was just a small area then it is probably possible to identify the component causing the trouble.

Kevin

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2 years 3 months ago - 2 years 3 months ago #11213 by Andy Fell
Andy Fell replied the topic: 80 HP 912UL will not start
If only, Kevin :-)

I think these guys are guarding their secret carefully; who would blame them!?

The whole back was cut open (say, 2mm edge left all around the back) and then entirely re-potted. I can see no evidence through the potting of the modification/fix, the potting is the very black stuff! There is no raised section in the potting, so it seems that the fix is 'subtle'.
Last Edit: 2 years 3 months ago by Andy Fell.

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2 years 3 months ago #11214 by David Wallis
David Wallis replied the topic: 80 HP 912UL will not start
I was thinking of getting my dead modules fixed even though I bought new ones. I hope this isn't a violation but can you post more information about CARMO so I might contact them?

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2 years 3 months ago - 2 years 3 months ago #11215 by Kevin Stewart
Kevin Stewart replied the topic: 80 HP 912UL will not start
Well Andy, get in there and dig it out! I'm curious now ;)

Here's the link David to the Carmo web site:

Carmo web site.
Last Edit: 2 years 3 months ago by Kevin Stewart.

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2 years 3 months ago #11216 by Daniel Leach
Daniel Leach replied the topic: 80 HP 912UL will not start
Did it cost much to repair them ?

Cheers Daniel

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2 years 3 months ago #11220 by Andy Fell
Andy Fell replied the topic: 80 HP 912UL will not start
"The test costs are € 45,- ex 21% VAT for each unit, when the units are defective and you would like us to repair them the total costs will be € 179,50 ex 21% VAT each.
Shipping costs back to the UK € 18,- ex 21% VAT.

You can ship the units to the following address:

Carmo Electronics
Jeroen Keeris
Rooseindsestraat 54a
5705BV Helmond
The Netherlands
0031 492 565 220"

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2 years 3 months ago #11221 by Andy Fell
Andy Fell replied the topic: 80 HP 912UL will not start

Kevin Stewart wrote: Well Andy, get in there and dig it out! I'm curious now ;)


I am very curious too... but having spend the money on the repair and now actually having my plane up in the air, I'm not too keen to wreck them! :-)

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1 year 10 months ago #12270 by Shawn Mack
Shawn Mack replied the topic: 80 HP 912UL will not start
Time to revive this thread. My 2007 model year 912ULS modules are dead.

Kevin, Mark and Andy, thank you all for all your efforts in researching this module. I also manufacturer electronics here in the states. I use Eagle and 2 overseas PCB manufacturers. I can source all parts from either Digikey or Mouser if possible I'd be glad to help out and get board made and try a pair. I have even sourced the 6 pin connectors from overseas.

Are you all willing to accept more help with this and collaborate with yet another Rotax owner?

Thank you,
Shawn

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