ROTAX 912 5YR RUBBER REPL KIT

by Edgar Teruel in General Tech Discussion 11 years ago

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Re: ROTAX 912 5YR RUBBER REPL KIT

by Eric Gray » 11 years ago

Eric Gray

0 6 0

Al, thanks for asking.

For just the two aircraft we exampled, we would recommend the five year replacement.

The REMOS was six+ years old with ~800+ hours total time (flight school ops for its first four years). Although we found no parts in imminent failure mode, it was clear that changing them was appropriate. Especially since the aircraft was in for both a rubber replacement and annual condition inspection (we are an authorized REMOS Service Center) and since the G-3 is an SLSA, and the REMOS manual defers to ROTAX, we could not sign-off the condition inspection without the rubber replacement. The customer was in agreement.

As for the AirCam, it is licensed as "Experimental" and the ROTAX five year replacement requirement would not have precluded us from signing off an annual inspection, "on-condition." We were not assigned the annual inspection (to be done later), just the rubber replacement, at the owner's request. However, this aircraft had not had ANY rubber parts replaced since birth, ten years ago... and it showed. It was most-certainly due, even though this aircraft had only 247 hours total time and had been hangared since new. Had we been asked to sign-off the annual, the rubber condition would not have allowed us to approve its return to service. By the way, the owner flew the AirCam 250 miles to us for this work, and in an AirCam, that's not a short flight. He trusted our evaluation.

So, we (FOXAerosport, Inc.), as an authorized ROTAX Repair Centre, can say... the five year replacement is somewhat overkill, but not by much. And TEN years (like the example AirCam) is waaay too long.

The risk of bypassing the five year replacement is subjective AND objective... depending on the aircraft's certification... and the A&P/IA or LSRM signing the logbook, and the owner's risk level.

FYI, any ROTAX trained technician that quotes a price of less than $3000 (parts and labor) for the five year replacement (except on the MOST SIMPLE installation) will either lose money, or the owner will be asked to pay more than he bargained for.

Also, please be sure the technician is ROTAX qualified.

I hope this helps.

ewg

Thank you said by: Al C

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Re: ROTAX 912 5YR RUBBER REPL KIT

by Roger Lee » 11 years ago

Roger Lee

125 5.12k 4.52k

After doing the Rotax 5 year rubber on over 35 aircraft and on 7 different types of LSA aircraft I have see some that absolutely needed new hose and yes many that could have gone longer. Can some hose fail less than 5 years, absolutely and I have seen ruined engines because of it. Can hose last much longer than 5 years, absolutely. The problem is you can never know when a hose will fail and it won't happen sitting in the hangar and if anyone says they can tell when a hose will always fail then I they are fooling themselves. The idea with the 5 year hose change is to error on a safe side. With decades of experience don't you think hose and engine companies together have seen their fair share of hose failures? If a hose fails with oil, fuel or coolant you are coming down and it isn't always over friendly territory and you may have a friend or loved one in the plane and you may not be lucky enough to make a good landing. way too many hurt making off field landings. Many a plane has had an off field landing just because of a hose in both the small and large aircraft market. I had a friend that had about two years and developed a pin hole leak in an oil hose and cooked the engine. As far as money goes I think the $900 for parts is darn close and if you have lots of experience can be shaved more depending on the plane. The $3000-$3500 is probably pretty close for most due to the hours they take with the inexperience and with bigger company rates of $90 hr.
I have seen some shops charge $4000-$4500 for a hose change and still do it wrong. The range I have seen over the last two years has been $2500-$5000. I personally don't have all the overhead that larger shops have and my rates are cheaper and I have a helper that is equal in experience. The hardest one for me to do is the Flight Design CT. We pull the engine completely, change all the hoses, change the engine mounts (those are extra and have nothing to do with the hose) remount the engine and carb sync it in 12 hours and have never had an issue. Our charge is $2700. Take out the parts of $900 or less and the rest is labor for 2. Piece of cake. My partner and I have done so many these they are pretty automatic any more. I just did one last week and have two more in the next couple of weeks.The average single mechanic with less experience and depending on the plane may take 20-30 hrs. It pays to shop and ask questions.

Have I seen bad hose from all those hose changes, yes and some really needed it bad, but yes some could have gone much longer. The issue is there is no way to know when a hose will go. You can't see under clamps, you can't see inside the hose, you can't see under fire sleeve that all fuel and oil lines should be in. How many of you that want it on condition have removed all the fuel and oil hoses in fire sleeve and looked on the outside and inside the hose? Most likely zero. What is your hard a fast hose replacement parameters? I also see from the factory and individuals that put wire ties on the hoses for heat shields and have compressed them down so far that the hose is restricted and it didn't look like it on the outside until I removed the hose and looked on the inside. I have posted many a picture on another website showing many a bad hose and some that had leaks at the 5-6 year mark.

There is not a single person that can tell you exactly when a hose may fail and I would bet not a single person has been taught by a hose Mfg on what to look for. Squeezing a hose and waiting for it to get hard is way past due and a false indicator. When a hose gets hard it's already too late.

Unfortunately planes and maint. cost money. I'm a believer in some things can be on condition inspection items, but they aren't flight safety issue items and won't cause a landing upon failure.

Bottom line is it pays to do things right, it pays to play on the safe side and it absolutely pays to shop for a good shop for a hose change. Using the wrong fuel hose and poor installation practices and poor sterile techniques is causing rubber debris in the carbs and causing power loss to people. It is not always as simple as yanking one hose off and putting a new hose on. The wrong hose will shear the inner liner off the hose and it will float downstream.
Also don't forget the legal aspect. If you loose an engine in flight and have a passenger and they get injured or killed you will have to demonstrate and explain all your hose expertise in court and tell them why you knew more than the engine company and the hose Mfg and decided not to do the recommended hose change. It will be ugly. It's much easier to defend yourself when you do things right.

This is one case that the old saying, "don't fix it until it's broke" is probably a poor choice.

Roger Lee
LSRM-A & Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Tucson, AZ Ryan Airfield (KRYN)
520-349-7056 Cell

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Re: ROTAX 912 5YR RUBBER REPL KIT

by Roger Lee » 11 years ago

Roger Lee

125 5.12k 4.52k

This is a re-post.

Here is a video of a piece of fuel hose off a Rotax engine. The hose is 6.5 years old and was not altered in any way. It is just the way it came off the engine and looks pretty good just sitting there. It had both ends plugged and a little water pressure applied from a bug sprayer. It was found when the engine was started by the owner and someone saw fuel leaking on the ground. It was always in a hangar. Yes this is a sever case, but demonstrates that it does happen.
Change your hoses so you don't show up on America's Funniest Video show hanging upside down in a tree yelling for help out your window.
They can fail and fail badly and with less than 5 years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=AdlKl9hSwHw

Roger Lee
LSRM-A & Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Tucson, AZ Ryan Airfield (KRYN)
520-349-7056 Cell

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Re: ROTAX 912 5YR RUBBER REPL KIT

by Eric Gray » 11 years ago

Eric Gray

0 6 0

Roger, thanks for explaining the situation in detail. We (FOXAerosport) agree with you on everything, and hope all ROTAX owners will abide by the factory 5 year replacement. Your video is certainly illustrative, and especially so for composite aircraft. Even though the fuel may be turned off at the first notice of fire, that may not be enough... nothing burns like composites, even without fuel.
The safety and liability issues are something we think about every day.

We are, however, in awe of your shop... being able to pull and reinstall the Flight Design CT engine (necessary), do all the replacements, AND a prop sync in only 12 man-hours. In by 0900, out by 1500. Wow...you guys are Supermen! We will send all of our CT and SW customers your direction! :cheer:

Eric

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Re: ROTAX 912 5YR RUBBER REPL KIT

by Roger Lee » 11 years ago

Roger Lee

125 5.12k 4.52k

Hi Eric,

Two people that can work completely independent for 12 hours is just like one for 24 hrs. We are consistent at 12 hrs. It takes us 1 hr. to disconnect the entire engine and have it hanging on a hoist. I probably work on 20+ CT's a year. I am also one of their service centers and do a lot of research on them. I unfortunately dream CT's or is that a nightmare. :lol:
Many LOA's on them are from me and the Matco brake are from me.

The hose in the video above is certainly an extreme case, but none the less it was real. Many hose issues happen right at the end of the fitting and where the clamps are.

Planes and flying aren't cheap, but my family and friends are worth far more than the money out of my pocketbook for maint. I can replace money, but not them.

Roger Lee
LSRM-A & Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Tucson, AZ Ryan Airfield (KRYN)
520-349-7056 Cell

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