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  • Re: Manifold Pressure Values?????

    by » 8 years ago


    Mr. Martin, I am not interested in what you say because you are not what is called "A supplier of approved data", only Rotax or an aircraft manufacturer can supply genuine instructions on how to manage an engine in flight.

    You allege that the correct way to set power for a Rotax 912 iS fitted with a constant speed propeller is by reference to a table of fuel flow and rpm vs specified power settings. If this is true then let Rotax make an official statement that this is correct and provide official instructions on how this procedure is to be achieved.

    This also begs the question of exactly what "fuel flow" really means which is a further source of inaccuracy. Rotax does not require a fuel flow measurement system to be fitted to the aircraft. The fuel flow "signal" on the CAN bus supplied by the ECU is inaccurate anyway. I refer to the Dynon Skyview installation manual which states on page 72-29 that:

    "While the 912 iS ECU does report fuel flow information, Rotax makes no claims about its accuracy."

    So there you go Mr. Martin, we have no way of knowing if the fuel flow figure being supplied by the ECU is accurate (derived from injector pulses with unknown latency as it is). So if Rotax wants to use this figure it must say "Indicated" fuel flow anyway.

    I am fitting an external fuel flow differential system which should give a relatively accurate fuel flow reading …after it is calibrated in flight over many tests, but it will certainly not be trusted on the first flight.

    In any case fuel flow is what is called a dependent variable - the required fuel flow is calculated by the ECU in response to the Two independent variables - rpm (set by the pilot via the propeller controller) and manifold pressure (also set by the pilot via the throttle). It makes no sense to try to set the power via the fuel flow instead of the easily controlled MAP and rpm.

    But all this is beside the point, Rotax needs to provide official guidance on how the company would like pilots to operate the engine fitted with a constant speed propeller.

    These instructions would look something like:

    REDUCE fuel flow to set value.

    REDUCE propeller RPM to set value.

    INCREASE propeller rpm to set value.

    INCREASE fuel flow to set value.

    Thank you said by: Ross rynehart

  • Re: Manifold Pressure Values?????

    by » 8 years ago


    Thanks to both Geoffery and Glen for your responses to my question. Glen, I don't doubt your extensive knowledge and expertise but I suggest it may be wasted in discussions like this because you choose a style of communication that fails to demonstrate that you understand the issue we are facing. I have a feeling that you do actually understand the issue but are not communicating it clearly. and thanks for the tip re getting instruction but I do actually understand how a CSP works and have considerable experience using them. The real issue here is (IMHO) that Rotax have introduced a great new engine but not done a great job of educating us on how to use them with a CSP set up. As you note Glen, this is new technology for our light aircraft and, speaking for myself, I need to understand clearly how to get the most our the engine. I think the manual could be more explicit here in educating us about how to use this new engine. Anyway, I do hope that we can continue this discussion in a manner that helps us mere mortals learn and those who come after us also!

    So, here is how I configure the settings at the moment. I have fitted MGL instruments and can clearly see the point at which the engine moves from power to eco mode - the fuel flow goes from about 22/23lph to 15/16lph (at cruise setting of 5000rpm). This happens at about the 24.4" - 24.8MAP. To date, I am running the engine at about 24.1MAP and this allows the engine to maintain 5000rpm and the indicated fuel consumption appears to be pretty accurate - 15-16lph (indicated on the MGL EMS and tested physically again today over a 3 hour flight) as indicted on the graph p5-5. The graph on p 5-4 suggests this is 75% power. Everything looks, sounds and feels good at these settings. If I go to the fig 2 p 5-2 it suggests at that engine speed I am close to max torque and providing adequate power for the propellor. So my thinking is that if I am happy to burn 15-16lph (which I am!), then I am getting max torque and adequate power to drive the prop at 5000rpm and 24.2"MAP. For economy ( and max endurance) the graphs suggest that I can run at 50% power (4300rpm and about 16.2 "MAP) and burn about 7lph. It is up to me as a builder and operator of an experimental aircraft to determine if that is possible or suitable in my particular airplane. However, I am hearing you say Glen that the sweet spot should be near max torque. I am happy to accept that as it makes sense. I would anyone's feedback on my thinking here..

    I am certainly not a Rotax knocker and get no sense that Geoffery is either. We are just trying to ensure we are using our engines in the manner intended and not causing undo damage or premature deterioration of performance and reliability. I thin the manual could be clearer on this and there is room for improvement. However, in the meantime, forums like this can certainly be a great way of educating users in the absence of clear explanations in the manuals.
    thanks again for input

    ross

  • Re: Manifold Pressure Values?????

    by » 8 years ago


    Having done a little more research, it is possible to set power by reference to fuel flow if the engine is running with a mixture that is lean of peak EGT because under these circumstances there is more air than required to burn all the fuel. In this combustion region fuel flow. determines power, not MAP or rpm. This is not true for rich of peak EGT operation because not all the fuel is getting burnt and the MAP and rpm control the amount of air in the cylinder and thus the power.

    If the engine when it is running in "Eco" mode is running lean of peak EGT then it is possible to set power by fuel flow at the Rotax specified rpm and operate it according to the fuel flow table provided by Rotax if this is what Rotax would like us to do.

    However Rotax would need to confirm that this is the case and that the engine is operating lean of peak EGT at less than 97% throttle otherwise this method will not work.

    Rotax also needs to tell us if the fuel flow data on the CAN bus is indicated fuel flow or calibrated fuel flow and if the fuel flow numbers in the table as well are indicated or calibrated quantities since otherwise I can guarantee our fuel flow readings from our separate systems (i.e. red cube differential flow rates) are going to cause confusion.

  • Re: Manifold Pressure Values?????

    by » 8 years ago


    Gentlemen,
    I think you are near the right track.

    As I mentioned before once you are less than 97% TPS you are in the Stoichiometric or leaner "lean of peak" region. I am not Rotax, but any Engineer worthy of working for Rotax will have set up the system to be as lean as possible..without damaging the engine..with a good safety margin for bad fuel etc.

    Therefore I believe fuel flow will be a suitable (from a general Pilots point of view) approximation for power.

    For my Aircraft I did tests of rpm/MAP fuel flow at different airspeeds and density altitudes and referenced these back to the Rotax supplied performance data to create a table with a few ranges of "nice settings" they were 100%, 95, 90, 85 80 etc. I think I wasted my time doing this it was not really necessary. there are only about three settings that matter (see below)


    Ross as you say, one factor here is "what you want". For some people burning and extra 5l/hr to get another 5 kts is well worth it, for others it is not worth the fuel.This depends very much on airframe, a nice slippery carbon fibre aircraft MAY speed up significantly with a few extra HP, a draggy "ragwing" designed for 65-80 Hp originally, may be already almost maxed out at 22 in MAP and the extra 5-8 L/hr may only add 3 kt !

    I have Also settled on a cruise which is 15-16 L/hr at 5000 rpm.

    So the three settings I use are

    1) Full power (5800 rpm full MAP)no more than 5 min
    2) Sustained power climb 5500 Full MAP or whatever I want
    3) Cruise 5000 and whatever MAP I want depending on how much money i want to spend on fuel.

    As regards fuel flow accuracy.

    Again I am not Rotax. Having said that I have set up engines where the ECU uses a "referenced fuel injector" that is one where we as the engine manufacturer have "mapped the injector for voltage and fuel pressure" then the ECU is very very accurate at producing a fuel flow number from the pulse width. I would expect Rotax to be this professional as well.

    To check this I have measured fuel usage (from a dipstick not the most accurate way) vs the Garmin G3x which takes fuel flow from the ECU can bus. I have done this over a number of 5+ hour flights and the two always agree within 2-3%. I have assumed, possibly inaccurately, that Rotax is correct and my wooden stick is off by 3%.

    As regards Rotax instructions I do not find them unclear, In fact I find them simpler than most GA aircraft.No shock cooling, no mixture control and manual leaning 50 degrees lean of peak !. No letting temps stabilise before shut down.

    Rotax states...

    1) You can have 5800 RPM and full MAP for five minutes.

    2) After that you can have 5500 rpm and any MAP you want/feel like for ever.

    Additionally as an ex engine developer I would suggest that the most "efficient" RPM is 5000 (vs 4800 for the ULS I believe)

    Where we seem to have a disagreement is that I see no reason or usefulness in any restrictions beyond that. You both feel that Rotax should instruct the Pilots as Geoffery says "on the way it has been done for 60 years"

    I have an Ipad in the cockpit, GPS, and all the modern stuff, I am comfortable with moving on from 1956, I understand your reluctance, it is quite normal. Perhaps Rotax will produce something for Pilots whom want to do it the old way, but I would not stress yourself over it, you will not damage the engine so long as you follow the simple recommendations in the Manual.

    I am very new to Rotax engines too, and we are all new to the IS engine. However my LAME whom has been working with Rotax/Lycoming/Continental engines for 30+ years said "it will not break like a Lycoming or Continental will"

    Thank you said by: Ross rynehart

  • Re: Manifold Pressure Values?????

    by » 8 years ago


    HI Glenn,

    Thanks for the info - I think the real issue for me is transitioning from the old way to the new way - and just making sure I am understanding it correctly. I just needed to 'bounce' my thinking off someone to make sure i wasn't missing something. At 5000rpm and 24.1Map I get the cruise I want - approx 102-3TAS and a 15lph fuel burn - same as you I note. I used the graphs today to set 17MAP and a 9lph burn at 65kts - nice slow flying with one stage of flap. Will continue to explore the 'curves'.

    Thanks again for taking the time to respond.

    cheers

    ross

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