582 wont start

by Michael Regan in General Tech Discussion 13 years ago

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Re: 582 wont start

by Michael Regan » 13 years ago

Michael Regan

5 96 0

Just to clarify Bill...
Keep them in the same cylinder but just switch their position.

So you mean...

1/ take both plugs from one cylinder and put them both in the other cylinder.
or
2/ swap both plug positions in the same cylinder.

thanks...mike

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Re: 582 wont start

by bill martin » 13 years ago

bill martin

10 757 0

Keep them in the same cylinder, just reverse their positions. Be sure and do both cylinders before doing the mag check. A quick way to do it, if your plug wires are long enough, is to reverse the plug wires. Again, keeping the wires on the same cylinder, just reversing their positions on the plugs. There is no danger of mixing the firing order. All four plugs fire at the same time always. Strange as it sounds, the plugs fire at the top of the stroke and also at the bottom of the stroke. Firing at the bottom of the stroke has nothing to do with how the engine runs; it is just the simplest way to build an ignition system without using a distributor. Thats why plugs don't last long in a two cycle. In a four cycle engine they fire once every two revolutions and in a rotax two cycle engine they fire twice every one revolution.

Bill.

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Re: 582 wont start

by Michael Regan » 13 years ago

Michael Regan

5 96 0

the plugs fire at the top of the stroke and also at the bottom of the stroke.

Does this have anything to do with why 582's are fuel guzzlers? You know Bill, I am wondering why Rotax ever made this engine in the first place. Its a hard to start engine, probably because plugs are on the bottom. Its power/usage ratio is terrible. Its very noisy compared to the 503 I used to have.I have also read that the 582 is prone to early crankshaft failure...especially earlier models. So what advantage does this engine have over others....the weight? Not trying to cause dissension among fellow 582 users...merely asking why you would use such an engine before the likes of a Jabaru or EA81-2 for instance. From the knowledge I have now gained on 582 engines, I would certainly not put one in a new aircraft I was building.

We have rain again here now, so might be a few days before I can test the plugs out Bill. I know I can do some test on the ground, but would also like to see what happens at 6000rpm over extended times, like say 10-20 minutes.

Thanks again Bill

mike

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Re: 582 wont start

by Roger Lee » 13 years ago

Roger Lee

125 5.11k 4.52k

Hi Mike,

I'm really am sorry your having an engine issue and I know your frustrated, but 95 times out of 100 it's not the engines fault. The problems can all be traced back to owners or the aircraft Mfg's setup of the engine. Too many of those guys don't bother to listen to Rotax.

This is what I have witnessed over the years.
The plugs aren't on the bottom, who ever designed your plane turned it upside down and there can be consequences to that depending on the setup. Most aircraft companies could if they really wanted to mount the engines up right. If you mount an engine upside down then oil and or fuel will pool down by the plugs, especially if your fuel tank is higher than the engine and when owners don't use a fuel shut off when they store the plane at the end of the day. Many aircraft Mfg's don't take those things into consideration. I know because I have had to fix poor engineering items from aircraft MFG's and then call them and let them know. Some care enough to fix it, some don't bother so long as they sell planes. Many have their 582's upright which is the best way. Most of the guys I know that do the prescribed maint. in the Rotax manual take their 582's to TBO without having any issues. Many things can affect your starting, even where the fuel tank is mounted compared to the engine can effect it, use of improper fuel filters with ethanol (swelling the element), oil type or engine rigging on an individual plane. I really don't think it's a bad engine I think there are poor setups and poor maint is why many have issues. I always recommend that owners take a class from Rotax on their 2 stroke and not listen to their neighbor. After market parts is another big problem and then people blame then engine when the use of supposedly Rotax compatible parts are used and something goes wrong later. Sky Tech starters were a major problem for the 912 guys. Sky Tech told them they were the same. Turns out they machined it wrong and it had a poor seal so oil leaked into the starter. Right away engine owners blamed the 912. Many parts look close, but will cause issues and it's easy for an owner to blame the engine. A hard starting engine is either caused by the engine setup and or could be improper maint. or lack of.

There is a solution to your problem, but I imagine it will take some one with experience to look at it and make a correction. If it were my plane I would take it to someone with 15+ years of Rotax 2 stroke time and I bet they figure it out quickly.

Fuel use is also determined by the prop, its length, the pitch and carb sync and setup, fuselage design and aircraft weight.

p.s.
I read your first post. You have a 50:1 auto oil injection and you added that much to the fuel. You now have a 25:1 mix which will lean out the fuel, make it hard to start, reduce engine cooling, may gum up your rings, build extra carbon deposits, soak the plugs to make it hard to start.

Dump all the fuel and start fresh. Then start from the beginning on your engine. Download the manual from this site and read it cover to cover. My bet is you will have your engine up and running the way you want it in short order.

The one last thing we don't really know about is how the last owner really maintained it. We have just their word which I tend to doubt 30%-50% of what they say at times. This is why I say it is super important to keep really good logbooks.

You could call some of these guys here on the forum they are pretty sharp. You may also have a Rotax mechanic that lives somewhere near you?

Roger Lee
LSRM-A & Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Tucson, AZ Ryan Airfield (KRYN)
520-349-7056 Cell

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Re: 582 wont start

by bill martin » 13 years ago

bill martin

10 757 0

Mike,

There are no ill effects to having the spark plugs fire at the top and bottom of the stroke other than replacing plugs more often. the extra spark will not affect the gas mileage. Even the 912 fires at the top of the exhaust stroke as well as the compression stroke. Auto engines only fire at the top of the compression stroke but have all the extra parts in a rotary or electronic distributor to worry about. I can't really address the issue of comparing engines since all of my experience has only been with Rotax. I will say that my personal experience with my own 582 has not been good. Bought the engine new in 2004, stuck by the Rotax checklists and recommendations meticulously, and lost a main crank bearing at 296 hours. Pieces of the bearing cage were sucked into the cylinder and destroyed one piston. Other pieces were thrown back into the rotary valve, jamming it, and destroying the rotary valve and valve shaft and gears. I also have friends who have over 700 hours on their 582s and have had no problems. Rotax does recommend a new crank at 300 hours in the 582. I almost made it.

Bill.

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